Curse

darth_kyle · Aug 14, 2005, 12:31 PM // 12:31

I think that the money is worth it £2 for 100k heck that'd keep me happy for a good few hours.

Numa Pompilius · Aug 14, 2005, 01:31 PM // 13:31

* You don't need the really expensive stuff. Truly, you don't. You can get stuff which is so close to as to make no difference (or no difference at all) for a few plat.
* Just playing the game will give you all the money you need to buy all the gear you need, with a generous margin. If you actually play, that is. If you get rushed to the endgame hey, what a surprise! no unlocks, no money, and no sympathy from me.
* Buying gold on ebay encourages botters. Botters are bad. They create lag, foo the economy, and forces anet to countermeasures which inconvenience the actual human players.
* Once you've got your godly gear, what have you got to play for? If you were only going to play PvP, then why did you want FoW/UW armor? If you were going to farm then didn't buying the money defeat the whole purpose of farming?

So all in all, buying gold on ebay is bad for the game, pointless for you, ruins the gaming experience, and costs money. But not illegal, and if you want to donate money to botters to keep them in business, it's your choice.

Dax · Aug 14, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Listen to this man, he has discovered the reason why grinding is fun: because it is part of the game!

Grinding is relative, your idea of a grind may not be mine or anyone elses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Good one.

Thanks, I made it up all by myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Stop making these blanket statements. Besides, the gold you get from finishing the storyline is nothing when compared to perfect weapon prices or gold sinks; it is hardly 'plenty' for anything.

Not true, if you want to go through and just play... you don't need that much gold. You don't need the perfect weapon or armor, the game doesn't require it. That's a choice you make to spend that much money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

You're missing the point. People call it 'grinding' for a reason.

Actually now you're making a blanket statement. I don't call it grinding, I call it 'playing towards a goal'. Just because there are a lot of very vocal people here, there is also thousands of players who may or may not consider it 'grinding'. In any other MMORPG most of the goals (end game armor, elite weapons, ect) take months or longer to complete. People have finished the game multiple times, so I wouldn't exactly call it too much of a grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

O rly. My friend bought only the CD-key from PlayNC — where is his box? Software is a product of the intellect, not machines in a CD factory.

Ok, I'm big enough to admit you've got a point. But still why buy a game and not play it, and worse yet pay someone to do it for you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Perhaps in Fanboi-land. Stop dodging arguments, somebody already said this:

Well, I didn't see his post still that doesn't make it anyless of a good question. Wow, if you consider me a GW Fanboi (where the hell did you come up with that one? I bet you like to use the words 'Leet' and 'uber' is sentances don't you) you've definately got me wrong. I think this game suffers from letting player take advantage of it's casual gamestyle to exploit there way through it. Buying gold is so lazy, and promotes botting the very thing that helped along the drop nerfing. If you want to do it, and if you don't feel bad cheating I guess that's your perrogative. But for pete's sake don't make up some BS reason like it's too much work...just owe up to it.

Fatalis · Aug 14, 2005, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Grinding is relative, your idea of a grind may not be mine or anyone elses.

I believe you meant 'subjective', and even then it doesn't prove anything but you being a grind monkey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

I don't call it grinding, I call it 'playing towards a goal'. Just because there are a lot of very vocal people here, there is also thousands of players who may or may not consider it 'grinding'.

I'm using the conventional definition of grind. If you want to jump on the "there is no grind" argument by using bad reasoning like this, go ahead, but I don't intend to follow you there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

In any other MMORPG most of the goals (end game armor, elite weapons, ect) take months or longer to complete.

There are more differences between Guild Wars and any other MMORPG than there are similarities, and even A.Net prefers not to call it that. Hence, your comparison is not valid at all. It doesn't even have a subscription fee, which is the reason why the developers of games like, say, WoW benefit from making people grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

People have finished the game multiple times, so I wouldn't exactly call it too much of a grind.

Some people have done it a lot, so it's not grind? Nice reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Not true, if you want to go through and just play... you don't need that much gold.

Since you're the one who initially brought this up, do you have any proof for what you're saying? My own experience with finishing the game normally and traveling to all the outposts speak against it being "plenty". In fact, after buying a few superior runes for my PvP builds it felt very much like broke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

You don't need the perfect weapon or armor, the game doesn't require it. That's a choice you make to spend that much money.

Your point is only half-true, because it is a necessity if you get the crazy idea to be competitive in PvP with your PvE character. According to A.Net, PvP characters aren't really supposed to have an edge over PvE characters, which is not true. Only the very rich players can afford to buy the top-tier equipment, and I'm not talking about social armor. Sure, you can compensate, say, a sub par hammer with greater skill in the arenas, but if you do TotPK or GvG any kind of handicap is unacceptable for a player that respects his comrades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

But still why buy a game and not play it, and worse yet pay someone to do it for you?

To paraphrase, why buy a game and not grind? How about because I have a life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Well, I didn't see his post still that doesn't make it anyless of a good question.

Let's look at it again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

So why don't pay to have someone just play the game for you?
Seems like alot of work

In the context of the previous discussion, it is a clear attempt at trolling. Instead of bringing forth any valid points to refute the opinions about grind, you just tried to pepper things up. Notice the implicit distinction you yourself have made between grinding and playing. The post that you "didn't see" simply outlined that it's not the part of the game anyone enjoys by definition. What your question said was this: why not pay somebody to play the enjoyable part too? I suggest you learn the definition of grind before you start an argument about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Wow, if you consider me a GW Fanboi [..] you've definately got me wrong.

Ignoring the gratuitous insult, I think your position is very easy to understand. You're a grind monkey that has confused Guild Wars with a no-montly-fees and better graphics version of WoW and are trolling now because some players have a way to cheat around the grind, and the developers see it as an excuse to increase it instead of changing the game conception. Not that you care about more grind, but it eats you that players can get around it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

But for pete's sake don't make up some BS reason like it's too much work...just owe up to it.

If it's so absurd, why has anyone done it? You can't write off people who value their time as lazy. Not wanting to contribute to a clearly meaningless thing has never made anyone that. On the other hand, the motives of people like you are much less sincere. Grind gives grind monkies like you an advantage because you apparently have a lot of time to waste, and that's why you're not very keen to let go of it.

Fatalis · Aug 14, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Buying gold on ebay encourages botters. Botters are bad. They create lag, foo the economy, and forces anet to countermeasures which inconvenience the actual human players.

I concur. However, botting is only the effect of grind involved in skill acquisition and unlocking in general. Gold can be used to speed this process up quite a bit by using taxi services to rush you in the game and buying unidentified armor, for instance. Having an extravagant and expensive outfit is fun too, but I think only a minority of players actually make it their goal. Unlocking, on the other hand, is by far the most common thing people try to achieve, because it's directly related to their competitiveness in non-arenas PvP. It's not just competitiveness, but that not being locked in just two professions is way more fun. And there is no denying that currently it's a priviledge only for players who have spent hundreds on hundreds of hours grinding.

As for proof, in the last State of the Game Letter A.Net promised us "a significant increase in the rate of item unlocking and skill acquisition". It means that they've to some degree acknowledged the problem. After all, 'skill over time spent' is still being used for hype-fuel. Wouldn't it be good to actually make the game hold true with that idea?

Dax · Aug 14, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

I believe you meant 'subjective', and even then it doesn't prove anything but you being a grind monkey.
I'm using the conventional definition of grind. If you want to jump on the "there is no grind" argument by using bad reasoning like this, go ahead, but I don't intend to follow you there.

Grind Monkey, that's a pretty good one. I'll give you credit for coming up with some real gems. But having said that I actually had point...evidently you enjoy just calling people names ...which is cool if that's your thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

There are more differences between Guild Wars and any other MMORPG than there are similarities, and even A.Net prefers not to call it that. Hence, your comparison is not valid at all. It doesn't even have a subscription fee, which is the reason why the developers of games like, say, WoW benefit from making people grind.

I agree with you it is a very different game.... it's alot less time consuming which makes it even more pathetic when people are to lazy to actually play the game. I totally empathise with people who actually spend the time ,and complain.... but please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Some people have done it a lot, so it's not grind? Nice reasoning.

Please stop, you're far too kind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Since you're the one who initially brought this up, do you have any proof for what you're saying? My own experience with finishing the game normally and traveling to all the outposts speak against it being "plenty". In fact, after buying a few superior runes for my PvP builds it felt very much like broke.

Actually yes, played through with henchies for the most part.... I don't think I've ever sold to anyone but merchants and never had to farm in the traditional sense. Oh can you belive I was a necro too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Your point is only half-true, because it is a necessity if you get the crazy idea to be competitive in PvP with your PvE character. According to A.Net, PvP characters aren't really supposed to have an edge over PvE characters, which is not true. Only the very rich players can afford to buy the top-tier equipment, and I'm not talking about social armor. Sure, you can compensate, say, a sub par hammer with greater skill in the arenas, but if you do TotPK or GvG any kind of handicap is unacceptable for a player that respects his comrades.

Well that's it then I guess all the PvP player had to buy gold off Ebay.
I remember reading something on the box about skills...yea I remember reading something about it. Actually I would think practicing your PvP skillios would be more of a grind than rest of the game, but like I say it's all relative

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

To paraphrase, why buy a game and not grind? How about because I have a life.

Sure...so you just wanna jump in with the best stuff while everyone else works at it...Ok fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

In the context of the previous discussion, it is a clear attempt at trolling. Instead of bringing forth any valid points to refute the opinions about grind, you just tried to pepper things up. Notice the implicit distinction you yourself have made between grinding and playing. The post that you "didn't see" simply outlined that it's not the part of the game anyone enjoys by definition. What your question said was this: why not pay somebody to play the enjoyable part too? I suggest you learn the definition of grind before you start an argument about it.

Sorry if I belive in the rules of conduct and the EULA, calling me a 'Troll' seems rather tame in comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

Ignoring the gratuitous insult, I think your position is very easy to understand. You're a grind monkey that has confused Guild Wars with a no-montly-fees and better graphics version of WoW and are trolling now because some players have a way to cheat around the grind, and the developers see it as an excuse to increase it instead of changing the game conception. Not that you care about more grind, but it eats you that players can get around it.

Heheh actually it was just a regular insult, but you shouldn't be worried I'm just a fanboi grind monkey as you said. Hahah Grind monkey that kills me every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatalis

If it's so absurd, why has anyone done it? You can't write off people who value their time as lazy. Not wanting to contribute to a clearly meaningless thing has never made anyone that. On the other hand, the motives of people like you are much less sincere. Grind gives grind monkies like you an advantage because you apparently have a lot of time to waste, and that's why you're not very keen to let go of it.

Actually I can and I do... I'd be ashamed to even tell people if I bought gold off ebay. mondo sadness I'd keep it to yourself

derrtyboy69 · Aug 15, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

the way i think many people see it: you can buy say 100k for 7 dollars. u spend 70 dollars and get a million gold. that million gold took you five minutes, instead of several hundred hours that you would most likely have to spend to get the money. instead of spending 500 hours ina game, you work 4 hours, say at 20 and hour. that 4 hours of work just saved you 496 hours in a game. many people would rather do other things with those hours. i dont ebay gold, and have no intention on it, but i think many people think that way

villain71 · Aug 15, 2005, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Once again sorry you don't like it but it's part of the game. You're basically paying someone to play for you. I know it's not what you want to hear but it's the truth. If you play through the missions I can almost guarantee you that you'll have plenty of money. Maybe not all the dye or the top weapons and armor but that's the price you have to pay (no pun intended). If you want that stuff you'll haveto play a little longer (gee if the game is that great you'd think this would be a good thing).

Oh and the game is real (it's on a physical disk, and in a real honest to goodness box), the time you paid someone to play it is not.

Sorry that's bull. I finished the game. i finished all the missions and I don't have a lot of money..thats when I got pissed off at the crap loot and coin that I just decided to purchase gold so don't assume I bought gold before I played the game. I mean wtf.. 30k for a black dye? Well what if I want to dye my armor all black..?? Should I grind for a long time then? That's bullshit. Or 90k for a superior rune?? WTf... I have only found one superior rune my entire friggin lvl 1 to 20. Time is money..rather make my money in person than in-game. Anyway I've already moved on to DS2 and only play GW for casual pvp.

=HT=Ingram · Aug 15, 2005, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Oh and hello!!! the games not finished. chapter 1 was only 7/8ths done at launch, so NO ONE has FINISHED the game.

buhbye..

Dax · Aug 15, 2005, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by villain71

Sorry that's bull. I finished the game. i finished all the missions and I don't have a lot of money..thats when I got pissed off at the crap loot and coin that I just decided to purchase gold so don't assume I bought gold before I played the game. I mean wtf.. 30k for a black dye? Well what if I want to dye my armor all black..?? Should I grind for a long time then? That's bullshit. Or 90k for a superior rune?? WTf... I have only found one superior rune my entire friggin lvl 1 to 20. Time is money..rather make my money in person than in-game. Anyway I've already moved on to DS2 and only play GW for casual pvp.

That's not the the point I was making. You might want to read it again, though maybe 'finished' is the wrong word... I never said you could get everything without a little work, I just said you could finish or play through the game...which evidently you did. Yes you might have to work a little harder to get everything you want...which I also said. You can go through the game without black dye, yes?

And just so you know with the previous poster I was being sarcastic. Anyone who buys gold does a disservice to anyone who actually played the game and put in the hours.

You don't need to get so defensive about it. This argument is a no brainer, even if you think this game is a grind and you think I'm full of crap. Buying and selling gold is against the EULA, is wrong, and screws up the game.
Until Anet makes it ok do within the game you (meaning anyone who makes excuses about buying gold on ebay) will never win this argument.

Dax · Aug 15, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

Oh and hello!!! the games not finished. chapter 1 was only 7/8ths done at launch, so NO ONE has FINISHED the game.

buhbye..

Your right my bad.... I rephrase it to played through.

The milk shake · Aug 17, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Rofl Lmafao Rofl Rofl Rofl Rofl Rofl Rofl Rofl Rofl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someones Selling Collectors Crimson Shield For 2 Bucks! Wtf Is Going On????

ZeR04U · Aug 17, 2005, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Just for everyone flying off the handle. I'm in business at the University of Washington, and although I'm not directly affiliated with a law program, I can tell you one thing.

Anet is not going to waste the time on a case in a court of law that involves people selling money on ebay. It'd be a low percentage chance to win, it's not like THEY sell money, and frankly, they're not going to waste millions on a lawsuit that probably wouldn't yield much from Ebay in the first place. If Anet sold gold on their website and they had lots of buyers before ebay then maybe, but simply put, this won't happen. Let people buy gold, and be quiet about it. I honestly doubt THAT many people buy gold on there. Reason? Go look on the feedbacks, and the recent items sold. Most of it is NOT the gold.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Ashley Twig · Aug 17, 2005, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somhairle Isis

What if (stick with me here) those people selling that crap are actually ANet employees? I mean...who else has the ability to find rare @ss weapons? Perhaps they are ANet employees making up for the fact that GW isn't pay to play?

CTs are not popular on this forum, but I like your idea. In fact I was just about to write about something like that too.

aNet (that's what I read in an interview with somebody from aNet) took some risk when they started the we-guarantee-no-fee business model.

Now, we don't know if GW is still profitable or not, since we don't get any numbers, but I would think, that, IF it was going off like a rocket, we would've heard about that already.

So, somebodyelse already said it: Banning bots, for aNet, is good business, because it usually takes some time to detect a bot, and by the time it is detected, it propably collected enough gold and sold enough of that on eBay to buy a new box and start botting again.

And like you said: Nothing can be easier for aNet or ncSoft to create their own characters with already 300K of gold in storage.
Oh, wait a sec, they can't even remove a stupid term from their block-list, so I might've been wrong about their ability to create a char with 300K gold.

I've always been wondering why aNet has nothing against farming, but bans bots. It's in the EULA, ok, but what else?
I mean: They do the same thing: they don't play the story line, the just go out collecting/selling items for gold.

What I like to see here is an official statement from aNet about eBay gold.
On the other hand, I've seen some official statements in the last few weeks, and some of them prooved to be not usefull actually.

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 17, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

;.; Someone bought money for a video game! This a discrace! Money should be hugged and loved and tucked away into your little bank vault, not thrown around hither and thither!

How would you have felt if your mother had traded you for Cigarettes??? Would you be happy???

DISGUSTING - IT MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACHE WITH REMORSE

strcpy · Aug 17, 2005, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aracos79

I think Sagius' interpretation of what's happening here is actually correct, or at least closer to reality. Why? Because all the eBay auctions still exist and are not closed. If what they were doing was illegal, eBay would be compelled and required to close those auctions down. They don't. Therefore you have to conclude that the so called "loophole" that the auction posters use is sufficient.

Ok, to begin with I'm not picking on the original poster (I say this in case he/she takes it as such), it's just a representative post to use. In fact, one of my interpretations of what he/she says I agree with mostly.

Anyway, the quotes on the loophole - if anyone here has delt much with judges you will learn they are not idiots. Loopholes, feats of logic, and playing with the "codes" of law only work in high profile cases, under a small group of judges, sometimes in criminal cases, and in people's imagination. If you, a normal person, can say that's trying to do an illegal activity and justify it by saying "That's not exactly what is said" a judge can, and will rule accordingly based on your atitude (basically, if you can easily see that as BS the judge can too - and they are in a position to rule as such). Case over, you are fined, or whatever your violation means (civil or criminal, though if you notice the vast majority of "I can't believe that" are criminal where you have to be guilty "Beyond a shadow of doubt" and need a jury, or are high profile rich people. Civil is prepondernace of evidence and rich can usually selecte (hmm, does money have anything to do with this) a judge who entertains those ideas).

I'm not a lawyer. My parents have been land surveyors who have been to court many time, and a handful of my aquintances are judges. Plus you only have to watch the TV judges - even Judge Judy isn't too far from this (and she is by far the worst of them in respect to ruling by the law, simply by her personal opinion).

I would guess the best answer is a combination. Anet profits most from banning their accounts only having them purchase a new one. And secondly that it costs more than it saves to prosecute them (you can usually only recover damages - what damages will you recieve from a botter?). This is still a loophole, just not the clever "I'm using GP as a measure of time and only selling time" thing. Judges will squash that, but other than a "Don't do it anymore, but if you do then oh well" what can Anet get from such a ruling?

=====
Dyslexia makes me spell bad, lazy makes me not use Word to spell check.

SOT · Aug 17, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

My own personal view in this is simple:

They say in their license agreement ya can't do it. People do it. Nothing happens.

The whole miasma of thoughts about precedent and law and all that jazz has nothing to do with this. They said in their Terms of Use that if you buy and sell items, your account can be banned. But they are not banning people for doing it.

Swagvault . com sells gold for this game and openly uses the guild wars likeness, logo, and terminology, as sells ACCOUNTS, sells ITEMS, GOLD, and has a service where you give THEM your login and password (unthinkable!) and they play the game FOR YOU, and you PAY THEM to do this to level you up.

No, that couldn't possibly break any laws or rules, moral or ethical

Dax · Aug 17, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeR04U

Just for everyone flying off the handle. I'm in business at the University of Washington, and although I'm not directly affiliated with a law program, I can tell you one thing.

Anet is not going to waste the time on a case in a court of law that involves people selling money on ebay. It'd be a low percentage chance to win, it's not like THEY sell money, and frankly, they're not going to waste millions on a lawsuit that probably wouldn't yield much from Ebay in the first place.

Doesn't matter really whether it's illegal or not (well it does, but for the sake of this argument). It's agaisnt thier EULA and they can ban you if they find out. That kinda defeats the purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeR04U

If Anet sold gold on their website and they had lots of buyers before ebay then maybe, but simply put, this won't happen.

I totally agree, but they don't

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeR04U

Let people buy gold, and be quiet about it. I honestly doubt THAT many people buy gold on there. Reason? Go look on the feedbacks, and the recent items sold. Most of it is NOT the gold.

Firstly I can't personally stop anyone, but this is a discussion forum the last time I looked and I have a right to my opinion. Evidently since it can get you banned from the game, it's hard to argue for it.

I don't understand why you'd not care, many of the things that Anet has done to combat botting from gold/item sellers (not just Ebay) affect the gameplay for everyone.

Sigh.....

Algren Cole · Aug 17, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

No, that couldn't possibly break any laws or rules, moral or ethical

you're right...it doesn't break any laws.

SOT · Aug 17, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

you're right...it doesn't break any laws.

Yes, it does.

Short for End-User License Agreement, the type of license used for most software. An EULA is a legal contract between the manufacturer and/or the author and the end user of an application. The EULA details how the software can and cannot be used and any restrictions that the manufacturer imposes (e.g., most EULA’s of proprietary software prohibit the user from sharing the software with anyone else).
Not every EULA is the same. Some contracts stipulate acceptance of the agreement simply by opening the shrink-wrapped package; some require the user to mail back to the manufacturer a signed agreement or acceptance card; some require the user to accept the agreement after the application is installed by clicking on an acceptance form that appears on the user’s monitor. This last method is typical of applications that can be downloaded from the Internet. In all instances, the user has the option of not accepting the EULA, subsequently surrendering the rights and ability to use the software.

As in typical legal contracts, the EULA protects both parties from liability if the software is used in a way not intended by the manufacturer or author.

The EULA also is often referred to as the software license or user license.

source - http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/E/EULA.html